[nSLUG] On Linux & digital rights & freedoms advocacy (avoiding us/them mentality)

Oliver Doepner oliver.doepner at gmail.com
Sat Apr 6 12:21:30 ADT 2019


Tony mentions
1) staying in touch with Facebook friends in a mindful manner
2) civil service [..] military [..] and common citizens [..]
commit[ed] horrible deeds.
and lumps together both 1) and 2) as outcomes of "bandwagon fallacy".

I (Oliver) find this comparison grotesque, especially since I know
that Ben on FB mainly posts  about nature walks and other peaceful /
mindful things, and does not engage in toxic hate-mongering or shallow
meme-posting, etc.








On 4/5/19, Tony Rowe <ay986 at chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> Hi Ben!
>
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:49:10AM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote:
>> I didn't mean to come down heavily on Donald in particular,
>>
>> But it does point to a thing that we, as a group operating within a
>> community
>> with a broad range of opinions & feelings on these issues, should probably
>> avoid: adopting an "us/them" mentality about our assumptions & values,
>> consciously or unconsciously, is not pro-social behaviour.
>
> Pro-social behaviour does not equate with goodness or best behaviour
> necessarily, does it?
>
>> If we want to advocate within the broader communities we are in for
>> more careful attention to and protection of digital rights and
>> freedoms, it would be helpful not betray such attitudes, even when
>> "privately"* discussing it amongst ourselves. I speak as one who
>> struggles with this with regards to all my own assumptions & values,
>> too, across the spectrum of my life experiences, and don't want to
>> come off as "having arrived" or being a perfect example to the group.
>
> No.  I believe the realists have a point here: that there comes a time
> when one needs to speak to a policy, to defend it, and be vocal in
> one's disdain (in this case for individuals who choose to use software
> which stands against digital freedoms); who are exercising the freedom
> not to be free at their peril.
>
>> The increasing polarization of views in the world is being
>> exacerbated by the toxic culture that Facebook and other social media
>> giants promote. Rather than entirely withdraw from that world, I have
>> opted to continue to work within it, but work harder at promoting a
>> different kind of culture in my interactions that does not "feed the
>> beast".
>
> I agree about Facebook and toxic culture.
>
> To return to Donald's point, I allow a software suite written by L.
> Poettering and cohorts to be installed (by fiat essentially).  It
> resides on my machine like an alien, almost as an operating system
> within an operating system, which sits devil-like between my userspace
> and the kernel.  I do this because it works quite well and because I am
> too lazy to fix something that isn't broken.  But I still think the PR
> (propaganda) of its implementation was awful and I don't mind saying
> so?
>
>> Whether this is worth it or not remains to be seen, but I care too
>> much about some of the people with whom social media is my sole point
>> of contact to just drop off of it entirely.
>
> Your transgressions look better than mine do.  You tolerate non-free
> media because you want to remain in touch with people you care about.
> But if I am lazy (and that would be a kind way to say it), are you not
> committing a bandwagon fallacy (succumbing to peer pressure
> essentially) with your, "Rather than entirely withdraw from that world,
> I have opted to work within it… "?
>
> Seriously derailed and insanely morbid governments have relied on this
> sort of behaviour from their civil service and from their military and
> indeed from common citizens as well, to commit horrible deeds.
>
> Certainly I see your reasoning and it may be mostly harmless in this
> context to do as you say, but I think your position has more potential
> to do harm than Donald's alleged elitism does.
>
> Tony
>
>> Ben
>>
>> * Note: we have a public web archive of our mailing list, so
>> nothing said here "in private" really is. The whole world is
>> watching!
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:36 AM Ben Armstrong <synergism at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>     That's my understanding too. Not a requirement at all.
>>
>>     On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM Joel Maxuel <j.maxuel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>         I think it's because meetup offers (and emphasizes) signup through
>> FB
>>         OAuth (whether that last word should be quoted or not).
>>         However it is very trivial to set up a standalone account from
>> what I
>>         remember.
>>
>>         --
>>         Cheers,
>>         Joel Maxuel
>>
>>         "One should strive to achieve, not sit in bitter regret."
>>          - Ronan Harris / Mark Jackson
>>
>>
>>         On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:21 AM Ben Armstrong <synergism at gmail.com>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>             On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:31 PM D G Teed
>> <donald.teed at gmail.com>
>>             wrote:
>>
>>                 A linux event requiring Facebook?  I guess that's what to
>>                 expect from the people who brought us systemd.
>>
>>
>>
>>             First off, a bit elitist, hm? Second, FB? Where do you see
>> that in
>>             the link?
>>
>>             Ben
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-- 
--
Oliver Doepner
http://odoepner.github.io/


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